Concept for a skill based system

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:58 pm

As I posted earlier, I think a level based system of character development distracts a player from the roleplay aspect of games. When two players meet, one of the first topics discussed is class and level. The same can be said when dealing with a skill based system that is tied into profession trees. Instead of identifying yourself as a Level 50 Fighter, you are a Master Doctor/Master Pikeman. It would be better to have skills separate completely from any profession in the game.

How do you learn skills?

The game EVE Online has a very interesting system of gaining skills. In that game, all you need to do is train in a skill to gain it. Training consists of selecting one skill and initiating a count down timer. The time counts down whether you are in the game or not, so a character has the potential to learn a skill while you are sleeping, at school or work. The down side to this is that you cannot advance through the game at your own pace, instead the pacing is dictated by the game. While it is nice that you can learn while sleeping, you cannot progress at a faster pace no matter what you do in the game. This leads to people logging in to check how much time they have left, then logging out again.

I favor a use based system for this reason. Let's get the players to play the game and advance that way. To effectively set up a system to reward the skills you use in the game requires separating all the skills into separate trees.

The skill system that I think would be best would have three separate trees. An attribute tree, a combat tree and a non-combat tree. There can also be classifications within each skill, like melee or ranged in combat; production or marketing in non-combat as examples.

Using a certain classification of skill would result in experience points for that class of skill. Throwing a rock will earn ranged xp that can be used to acquire the slingshot skill or a thrown dagger skill as examples. The xp can be banked either indefinitely or until a cap is reached, then the player can choose what skill to learn next if there is a choice of more than one. Of course, in a system where the player can learn an unlimited amount of skills the skills will gradually require more xp as the character progresses.

The Attribute Tree

The attribute tree, while not necessarily skills, can hold a useful function in this proposed system. If skills require a minimum attribute (Strength, Intelligence, etc) to learn, the attribute tree can increase your base attributes to meet those requirements. Think of these as training skills like aerobics to increase your endurance or strength. Besides allowing you to increase your attributes to meet skill requirements, the increased stats can also have an effect on how successful your combat and non-combat calculation rolls are.

The Talent System (no, not like World of Warcraft's)

In order to bring about more character customization, each character can be given a talent they excel in. When a player uses a skill that their character is talented in they receive more xp than someone who is not. Besides allowing greater customization for your character, this system can have many more potential uses.

Increase player interdependency by giving skills that affect talents. This can be represented by a buff system that provides a temporary buff that can give another player a the equivalent of a talent in a certain area. There can also be a mentor/apprentice relationship for group members or player crafted items that can act as a study aid.

The player's talent can be determined through character creation either randomly or though a question and answer survey system (for those that remember the Ultima single player games).

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:29 am

Very interesting stuff! I would only add this: the ability to gain an unlimited amount of skills means that eventually everyone will have everything and there will be no distinguishing one character from another, except for looks.

The whole idea of skills rather than levels, to me anyway, promotes RP the way levels never can, for exactly the reason you mention in your first paragraph. But if you separate skills from professions, I think you can easily make balance a pipe dream that will never come close to being achieved. Very special care will have to taken to build skills in a way that there are no FOTMs. I guess as long as you don't fall into the trap of constantly trying to balance one class/profession/skill set against another, you will always have time to do the real work - fixing bugs and adding content. Nice of SOE to pave the way for us with their mistakes, ain't it? Very Happy

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:44 am

Actually, by eliminating professions from the equation, you can hopefully eliminate the need for balance in the first place.

Instead of having a BH as a class with a specific range of skills competeing with a smuggler and their own range of skills; you have a player with skills chosen because they help him to hunt bounties competing against another player with skills chosen to help evade hunters.

Since the skills are not tied into the profession the player is not limited on their choice of skills. In fact, it is possible that two players in the example above could have the same set of skills and be completely balanced, just one chooses to smuggle and the other chooses to hunt.

So now it would just be up to the devs to make the skill valuable enough for the players to want it, no matter how they choose to use it.

As for the unlimited amount of skills, I posted nearly your same thoughts in a prior post. IMO, I think you are correct that eventually everyone will have every skill. I favor a restricted system based on points spent that can be interchanged, much like SWG except not tied into profession onions. However, it doesn't hurt to look at other options and an unlimited skill system is one of those.

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:45 am

Don't forget the possibility of skill decay based upon non-use. That still intrigues me.

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:28 pm

How about a skills system like the one used in TES: Oblivion (and it's predecessors)?

It is the type I like the best, where you basically have all skills (and can have all of them) but your advancement is tied to use of them. Skills improve with use, and when you advance so many points in a skill or skills you gain a level.

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:15 pm

wildcat84 wrote:

How about a skills system like the one used in TES: Oblivion (and it's predecessors)?

It is the type I like the best, where you basically have all skills (and can have all of them) but your advancement is tied to use of them. Skills improve with use, and when you advance so many points in a skill or skills you gain a level.

You know, one of these days I'm gonna have to play that game and see what all the fuss is about Very Happy

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:22 am

Kenshu Ani wrote:

Actually, by eliminating professions from the equation, you can hopefully eliminate the need for balance in the first place.

Instead of having a BH as a class with a specific range of skills competeing with a smuggler and their own range of skills; you have a player with skills chosen because they help him to hunt bounties competing against another player with skills chosen to help evade hunters.

Since the skills are not tied into the profession the player is not limited on their choice of skills. In fact, it is possible that two players in the example above could have the same set of skills and be completely balanced, just one chooses to smuggle and the other chooses to hunt.

So now it would just be up to the devs to make the skill valuable enough for the players to want it, no matter how they choose to use it.
.

Bingo.

A true skill-based system should at the least have very broad skill trees that get narrower and narrower and narrower, like an upside down maple tree. While you can either totally throw out professions and make it totally class-less, you can still have "specializations" (ie commando specializes in assault + heavy weapons...a rifleman in sniping, etc) but aren't "true" professions, since most skills would be gained via independent trees. Also, you can have the specializations be simply titles or "jobs" that you can go into (ie its like going through an engineering degree program at college, then getting a job in engineering afterwards).

A good document to look at is this:

http://soe.lithium.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swggpdiscussion&message.id=509741&query.id=0#M509741

And atm, it's something we're playing around with. The exact role of specializations is still in a brainstorming phase, but more or less...if you want to bounty hunt...you get BH skills, if you want to smuggle...you get smuggling skills. You don't necessarily become pigeon holed into a BH or smuggler profession. Ie if you specialized in special forces skillse (assault/Heavy weapons), to earn income you can pick up BH skills.

A mock skill tree flowchart: Special Forces/Soldier specializations each have 2 lines...Assault Weaponry/Heavy Weapons in SFS and Rifle/Pistols in Soldierly...these two trees open up special tactics and specials, where as the actual weapon mods are gained through trees in advanced combat.

A close up look at the two combat skillsets are as follows, just keep in mind these are mock-ups:

The basic premise behind skill gainage is this:

The more you use a weapon, the more you gain in skill with it. Each skillbox does not give mods or specials (specials can only be gained in the higher skill sets - the specializations, which in turn open possibilities for players to become royal guards or special elite troopers in their factions, etc). Instead, each skill box increases the hardcap on the amount of mods you can have with one weapon...this is representational of someone practicing long enough with a gun and who becomes a decent shot, but he isn't going to learn to become better without being taught how to hold the gun better.

Only the skillboxes cost points...so a crafter can simply pick up a rifle and gain some general weapon skills from the get-go and not have to invest in combat skill points. They won't be great mind you, but that can have a lil combat...anyone can pick up a weapon and use it...its all dependent on how well you use it.

So the more you shoot something, and score a hit the more "xp" you gain (which are mods). Once you hit the mod-cap, you can then train in your skillbox. So technically there isn't an xp system...its based on how many times you are a good shot. This further ties in with a proposed aiming meter that's a whole other story.

To exemplify the mod gainage, I was shown this lil game from 2000...its not much, but it more or less shows what we're aiming for.

http://www.redlinetek.com/bin/personal/swg.html

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:46 am

I hope you don't mind, but I shrunk the images so that I could read what you were saying far more easily. Wink

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:50 am

Well you have to squint to see the adv combat, but nice didnt realize a mod/admin could do that on the php boards Razz

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:56 am

Yeah, I noticed that the advanced combat chart was a little hard to read... Feel free to change it back if you prefer the other way (I just hosted a smaller version on my photobucket account).

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:13 pm

Kenshu Ani wrote:

[size=15]As I posted earlier...

Very very nice!

What i like about skill system is that when you stand oposing your oponent, neither of you know which skills that person have. Ok, you can guess by looking at his/hers weapon and/or armor, but eg. animals or Super battle droids do not wear specific armor/weapons. Also, ti means that one CL 90 ranged is not necessarily better developed as on CL90 melee guy, because there should always be rock/paper/scissors system in such.

This leads to talks about your skills and what you are and what are advantages or disadvantages or each. Smile

G.

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:19 pm

Kylrathin wrote:

Very interesting stuff! I would only add this: the ability to gain an unlimited amount of skills means that eventually everyone will have everything and there will be no distinguishing one character from another, except for looks.

The whole idea of skills rather than levels, to me anyway, promotes RP the way levels never can, for exactly the reason you mention in your first paragraph. But if you separate skills from professions, I think you can easily make balance a pipe dream that will never come close to being achieved. Very special care will have to taken to build skills in a way that there are no FOTMs. I guess as long as you don't fall into the trap of constantly trying to balance one class/profession/skill set against another, you will always have time to do the real work - fixing bugs and adding content. Nice of SOE to pave the way for us with their mistakes, ain't it? Very Happy

You can limit that by using points which you spend on each skill out of limited point pool, like in swg, or you go through locking particular trees when you spend points on tree which is on opoisite side of it.

There are many ways, to stop people of learning everything, and RL is typical example of skill based system, people specialize in particular thing, or they go wide on skills but then they are only average in all Smile

G.

p.s. or did you see people showing their ID's saying "i'm level 20 car driver" instead "i can drive cars and bikes but not trucks" Razz